Sunday, 26 January 2014



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    2. you write (and deleted :o)

      Why did he see the Nembutsu as the ultimate coherence? Because it doesn't come from human intelligence, or so he thought. The way he understood the Nembutsu is that in the voicing of it, subject and object disappear, practitioner and Buddha no longer exist. Only the voicing (=thinking). "The Name calls the Name and hears the Name." - I remember Andrew wrote something about the connection between self-recursion and dai-kensho ... I'll try to find it again, some time today or tomorrow.


      Here's one who saw all that humans of his time had to say as completely garbled:

      "Apart from the Name, we ourselves completely lack any capability. I believe our existence to be wholly deception and delusion. Consider all that is said apart from the nembutsu to be but gibberish." - Ippen


      my reply

      "After Ippen's death many of his disciples appear to have committed suicide, throwing themselves into the sea in the hope of being born in
      the Pure Land"

      fuckwits following afuck wit !

    3. zakaj you want to have your cake and eat it ! pure land Buddhism is not "contemplative mystical" which is what zen and people like john of the cross and sa'di are really about

      you want the understanding that comes with contemplative mysticism, but also the "waiting at the end of time" mindset (ie twiddling your thumbs :o) that goes with pure land Buddhism !

      contemplative mysticism is really hard grinding work !

      that's why I say it's really only for celibates ! :o()

      the reality is you are waiting at the end of time and I guess a part of that is not to be realistic where you do and don't put your efforts so are blind to getting the contemplative aspect very very wrong and confidently post complete nonsense !

    4. You're right about everything. It's a waste of time to come here and read your stuff. Contemplative mysticism ain't for me. Good luck on your journey.

    5. I think you are actually one of the more unusual people I have come across, perhaps the most unusual because you have a metastable brain state !

      when you are drunk you are chemically put in "the enlightened state" and whether being one phase of this metastability is going to give you any peace I don't know ! :o()

      I think not !

      you make me think about charles bukowski and imo you could do well to be come more familiar with his life and his writings :o)(

      I may seem a bit negative but actually you have opened my eyes a bit, but it's similar to reddit zen, as an illustration of a reality mode that one personally wants to avoid !

    6. zakaj, what i would say is you are a lot stranger than you take yourself for and people take you for, like you are really really strange, one in ten billion or something :o)(

      out of the box, legal/illegal/conceptual and totally not even of any planet strange :o)

      i don't think we are going to get rid of each other tho probably it's healthier for both of us :o)

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    9. The reason I come here is that you're not fake. I'm tired of reading big words ... those big words ... Self-nature, Essence of Mind ... the reason why I like the Pure Land tradition more than Zen, is that some people were really brutally honest with themselves, they were able to assess themselves in a non-bullshit way. Especially Shinran. He basically admitted on record that the only reason he teaches is he desires fame and profit and that he has not even little compassion for anyone. Now this kind of person I can trust. There's something genuine there. I left /r/zen (unsubbed and demodded) because as a moderator I had to read 50 comments by ewk & co daily and it was rotting my brain ... But why do you say I'm so strange? I think I'm hyper-sensitive and a little paranoid too ... Things that seem simple to other people are very challenging to me. Having a wife actually helps me cope with the world, in many ways, but that's another topic. - I avoid alcohol as much as I can, although I love it. But it's been destructive so I better not touch it. Perhaps the Pure Land is a replacement for something, it's like methadone. It's not that I believe there is a Heaven somewhere. It's more like a positive expression of detachment. The follower of the Nembutsu repeats "Namu-Amida-Butsu" and thus retracts from all existence. You quoted Ippen's students killed themselves. But is that really a counter-argument to Pure Land? - What do you recommend from Buchowski?

    10. yeah, I think I am getting sick of /r/zen too :o(

      I got the hang of ewk after a while and now he doesn't reply to me :o)

      but he's damaging to deal with cause he doesn't give a millimeter and that's sorta destructive to one's brain ! :o()

      the way I would look at pure land is it has some strengths and weaknesses

      shinran's honesty and I guess brutality is a strength, but the notion of pure land itself and the nembutsu chanting are allegorical when there is some reality that it is allegorical of !

      so the next step is to investigate what it is allegorical of which is actually mystical contemplation !

      there's some good charles bukowski videos on you tube, like you I was initially put off by his "bum and alcoholic" lifestyle, but in fact he did drink less when younger and seems to drink more than he does because he gets so traumatized by public appearances he had to be drunk to cope !

      what I noticed about his writing is he is about 70% right (which is a high percentage seeing how we normally limp along on about 15 to 20 %) even tho I disagreed with what he said and it could take a while to see that !

    11. He seems to be referring to people we would call enlightened, and also to glimpses of enlightenment from people we would generally call unenlightened. Even the unenlightened can get lucky and produce something enlightened.

      One can compare Zen mystics to Christian mystics, and Shinran to someone like Luther (in some ways) or even Kierkegaard (in other ways). It's a genuine form of religiosity that, however, doesn't involve mystical contemplation. It refers to mystical contemplation. It doesn't declare it to be sour grapes - in a way, it still sees it as the goal, the ultimate - however it proclaims it to be something impossible. And yet, nevertheless, it tries to maintain a relationship with it. Not a relationship of direct engagement, but an indirect negotiation with it.

      The idea there is that infinity is ultimately not approachable through signs, through forms, through images, through anything - and so "Amida" and "Pure Land" are only ways it discloses to us, to render itself somehow intelligible. An allegory, as you say. To quote Shinran:

      "The supreme Buddha is formless. Since this has no form, it is termed jinen (suchness or as-it-is-ness). When it manifests itself, it can no longer be termed ‘supreme nirvana’ (or dharmakāya). I have been told (by my master Honen) that it is called ‘Amida Buddha’ so that its formlessness might be brought home to us. Amida (Buddha of Infinite Light) is a means through which ‘suchness’ can be fully realized by men". (Mattō-shō: 5).

    12. that's a much more coherent post !

      I think shinran is espousing the monist position tho with some qualifications and perhaps as you point out a healthy skepticism about the whole business :o)

      what's different about him and so very different from almost any other "end of timer" is he could have been a "great enlightened sage" if he had been celibate and put the time into going further down that road which is not really open to married with kids and "suburban life"

      he took the "married with kids road" and knew the difference which I think shows greatness of mind !

      for income he was obliged to come up with something for his followers to do and voilà "pure land Buddhism" !

    13. I think one reason the Persian/Iranian (same thing) empires were so strong in the past was due to their use of eunuchs in the court:

      I do think being celibate or a eunuch has its benefits, especially in mental clarity. I don't think there are any neuroimaging studies that analyze it though.

    14. yeah i do think eunuchs give a continuity outside the family based power structure/s !?

      there certainly has been lack of foresight/insight/commonsense in the iranian governments over the last 70 years

    15. No one likes them. The citizens tried revolting 4 years ago, but a lot people died (~150) and they failed:

      All of my family thinks they're batshit insane. We went from something somewhat corrupted (Mohammad Reza Pahlavi) to something even worse (Khomeini and Khameini - IRI).

    16. Zakaj, are you aware of Shinran's Manichaen influences?

      On a side-note: I've always found Mani (the founder of Manichaenism) as being more interesting than Zarathustra, partly because we know more about him...

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